Tony Clee: A historical perspective of Smiler’s early days and the roots of Iron Maiden

Well, we all know the story of NWOBHM and one of its originators - Iron Maiden. But today we are going a bit deeper in those days when young Steve Harris made his first steps in music and had joined band Smiler after short affair with Gypsy's Kiss. I believe we can say that Smiler was the band when it all started to get serious for Steve and where he met Doug Sampson and Den Wilcock who later all became parts of Iron Maiden. Here is an extensive interview with Tony Clee who was Smiler's guitar player.  

First of all, tell us please about your musical background. At what age did you start playing guitar and who influenced you to do that?

Mick was the first one to show an interest in playing the guitar. He had an Elvis Presley model guitar made entirely out of plastic. It came with an instructional book which showed you how to play chords. We both tried playing it for a while but like lots of people who first start playing an instrument, we abandoned it and it gathered dust before he sold it to a friend. We were about nine years old at the time. Mick had a friend who played in a band and he renewed his interest in playing again a bit later on. My first guitar was a big acoustic with ‘f’ holes and the neck was hanging off the body. Dad glued it together and I learnt to read some music and started playing Shadows stuff like “Apache”. I remember getting a small acoustic guitar as a present from my parents and so we began playing again, but didn’t really start electric guitar until a few years later. My first electric guitar was horrible but I started learning some rock and blues. I had a couple of lessons from the lead guitarist of a band called Anvil called George who played a Gibson SG standard and was to my ears at the time an amazing player. He had a little amp that he put on a chair, turned right up and smothered in blankets to keep the volume down a bit. It was great for the few minutes he got away with it before his mum told him to turn it down.

We were into all the British bands at the time, the Beatles, Who, Kinks and so on, but especially what became known as the psychedelic and progressive rock bands like Cream, Hendrix and the heavy rock bands like Black Sabbath and Deep Purple. The Stones were and still are great, and Johnny Winter was a real favourite. There had been a blues boom going on in the sixties, and we loved John Mayall’s Bluesbreakers with Eric Clapton, Peter Green and Mick Taylor, and other British blues rock bands like Savoy Brown and Sam Apple Pie. It was always the sound of a wailing electric guitar we were mostly interested in and rarely listened to anything else. It was an exciting time to be in London at that time. There were so many venues all over London featuring all kinds of bands. At that time you could see the very best of rock, blues and progressive rock bands for pocket money. Chicken Shack, Climax Chicago, Edgar Broughton, Pink Fairies, UFO, Pink Floyd, Hawkwind, Groundhogs, Steamhammer, Taste , Juicy Lucy. You could see them all most nights of the week.

Is it true that you were fans of Sam Apple Pie back then? What were some of your other influences?

We were great fans of Sam Apple Pie and used to catch them playing gigs around London and the South of England. It would never have occurred to us that we would be playing in a band with Sam Sampson’s young brother on drums if we fast forwarded four or five years. At the time they had a reputation for playing a mixture of hard driving rock and blues with some wonderful fluent lead guitar from Mick Rockwell Smith and slide guitar from Andy Johnson, both have sadly joined the great gig in the sky, but with Sam Sampson on vocals and blues harp they really delivered their music with energy and humour. It was a rare combination. Andy Johnson invited me to come along to an audition with them some years later when punk was taking over the club scene. I went along but I didn’t do very well. Too lacking in confidence really. You really have to believe in yourself and what you’re doing to do well. It’s surprising how many top players doubt their ability at some point. Both Hendrix and Clapton were critical of their vocal ability, and I remember Clapton saying that he was only as good as his last gig. If it was not a good one it would haunt him. Steve Harris understood this I think. He was always very focused and keen to get it right. It haunts me when I feel I’ve played poorly even today if I think back many years or to the more recent gigs which are sadly few and far between. That’s why preparation and hard work are so important.

So all those guitarists who could play with passion and feel would be listened to and we spent a lot of time copying songs and solos from records. We’d play something on the record player and lift the arm up and try to play it back on guitar. We learnt most things that way. Or taped it on an old Ferguson reel to reel tape recorder. The very same that I used to tape our rehearsals when Steve Harris joined our band later on. I wish I still had those tapes. I left it in my rented room in Wood Green along with some of my treasured records some years after. I just wanted to get away from the whole thing and forget music, maybe settle down, get married, buy a house and all that. You can get very disillusioned and fed up with other band members or with the music scene in general at times. It is an amazing achievement for Steve Harris to have been through what is in many ways a grueling experience, and can kill you as it has with some many great musicians along the way. He must run a very tight ship if you think about it.

Santana, Richie Blackmore, Tony Iommi, Hendrix, Jimmy Page. To me they had an essential element of blues in their background. I admired guitarists like John McLaughlin and Alan Holdsworth for their inventiveness, technical ability and breathtaking speed in their soloing, but nothing moved me like hearing Hendrix playing Red House or Blackmore playing Child in Time. In the words of a Savoy Brown song, “Wouldn’t it be a real drag if we were all the same?”

We were very much influenced by bands that featured harmony lead guitar like Wishbone Ash and the Allman Brothers as well as Lynyrd Skynyrd.

Did you play in any bands before Smiler?

Smiler was our first band. We mucked about with friends occasionally, but our first outing with a proper line up, rehearsing and gigging was Smiler.

Is there any specific story behind the title Smiler? Who came up with it?

Paull Sears came up with the name. Denny Wilcox did the graphics for the logo, a Denace the Menace type kid with a grin and a machine gun. We used to put the stickers up all over the place to get the name around, especially when we had a gig coming up. I don’t know whether Paull got the name from Rod Stewart’s album of the same name. Maybe.

Paull Sears

The first Smiler’s line-up consisted of you, Fred Leggat and Paull Sears. How did you get to know them and why did they quit the band eventually? Do you know what happened to them after that?

Smiler didn’t come into existence until Paull joined the band, so the line up with Fred wasn’t actually Smiler, but anyway in those days it was me and Mick, Fred, who used to be a middle of the road singer, and a friend of ours, Steve Smith on drums. When Steve left, we auditioned for a bass player and Steve Harris got the job. I think he was the only one who applied actually, but anyway he could play. He was around six years younger than us, about seventeen or eighteen I think. I was working as a plant fitter at the time, repairing hire equipment like cement mixers and lawnmowers. Mick and I both trained as engineers when we left school at sixteen going on seventeen. Fred was a fitter too. He was a good singer and keen to try some rock stuff, so we rehearsed a few times before Steve came along. Steve didn’t want to join the band if Fred stayed, mainly because of his image, age, and singing style, so that was the first time we had to handle the delicate matter of asking someone to leave the band. Steve would often point out in interviews later on how we were so much older than him, but if you asked him now whether it is such a big deal he would say no I’d guess. He is after all around sixty himself now, and it doesn’t seem to have slowed him down. But because we were older than him he assumed we had more experience playing in bands.

Steve had already played in a band called Gypsies Kiss and had played some gigs. The idea of going out and playing in front of an audience was pretty daunting. There were so many great bands around, but we practiced and got some decent gear to play with. I was using an H&H solid state amp, which had some sustain, but I preferred valve amps, so I traded it in for a 100 watt Hiwatt which I got on Hire Purchase, paying a bit each week.

I had an SG Junior which was a great combination. No pedals. We couldn’t afford them! Mick had his Gibson Firebird and an Orange 100 watt amp, but he got an AC 30 a bit later on.

We used to rehearse in a hall at the back of a pub in Enfield. The White Horse I think, in Green Street. I don’t know if it’s still there. Probably not. Like so many pubs and clubs all over England, they have now closed down through lack of interest in live music or most people staying at home to drink, watching music on a wide screen or playing games. It’s a sad reflection on the live music scene nowadays because these places were the spawning ground for bands such as Iron Maiden. It was here that they learned their craft.

We were often told to keep the volume down. We were loud. Steve was always serious about the music we played and wanted it to sound good, so he learnt his parts as we all did. Much of the material was covers of rock and blues popular at the time and was ok but we needed a drummer. When Paull started playing with us it was incredible. It was the first time we actually sounded really good. We auditioned Paull and I remember when we played “Black Magic Woman”, Paull got that just right and when it goes into the shuffle towards the end Mick really took off on that solo. Paull left the band before we got out to play our first gig. I can’t remember why, but I have always thought he was a fine drummer with a great sense of humour.

Doug Sampson took his place. He was great too. And he was a laugh. We almost had a band, but I was doing most to the singing in rehearsals until Dennis Wilcox joined us.

How would you describe the music of Smiler? Did you play any original songs or were they all covers? Did you record anything with this band?

We were a rock and blues band. We were influenced by all those bands I’ve mentioned, so there was some heavy stuff like “The Red And The Black” by Blue Oyster Cult, “Alabama Bound” by the Pretty Things as well as Progressive rock by Wishbone Ash, like “Error of My Ways” which was a slow melodic ballad. We liked the harmony lead style and I know Steve Harris did too because he featured it on later Iron Maiden songs. We did straight slow blues like Fleetwood Mac’s “Need Your Love So Bad”. It was a steep learning curve. Our first band, lots of songs to learn, equipment to buy and maintain. Denny was a showman in true Roger Daltry style. Not only did he look like him with lots of curly blond hair, but his stage act too, swirling the mic round on its lead and catching hold of it. We were forever taking mics and leads in for repair. We used the technician at Holiday Music, run by Steve Joly who was a fine guitarist himself and played on Sam Apple Pie’s first album. We got most of our gear from there. I’ve still got my old tweed Fender Blues Junior I bought from there when I played in the Mean Roosters blues band many years later.

We were the roadies really, taking the gear around in an old Austin J4 van that Mick bought for £25 from his engineering company where he worked. We had no idea how to set things up, we just learnt by trial and error. We tried to limit the volume a bit by turning our 4x12 cabinets round to face the wall, but a more experienced player told us it could blow the speakers, so we turned them back again.

We tried some things like Capability Brown’s “Keep Death Off the Road (Drive on the Pavement)”. It was a bugger to work out what was going on in that song. But we got two sets sorted well enough after a while. All covers to begin with. We used to rehearse at Alan Gordon Studios in Walthamstow. There were six soundproofed studios underneath the railway arches. It must have been a goldmine. It was always busy. With all the bands playing at once it was bedlam especially when a door to one of the studios was opened. Of course it was at the famous Cart and Horses at Stratford that we played our debut gig. We were petrified but tried not to show it. Steve was always very nervous. I believe he still does suffer from stage fright. He certainly did at that time. We played well enough to get return gigs anyway, and gradually started to relax and dress up a bit for the occasion. It’s a small pub and there isn’t much room to move. So it took a while to actually enjoy it. But a good night gets into your blood and you want to do it again. And again.

Smiler, 1974

What can you say about the music scene when Smiler appeared? Was it easy to get shows or residencies in clubs like Ruskin Arms and Cart & Horses? What were your opinions about punk rock?

Back then it seemed easy to get gigs. People turned out to see bands and without that pubs and clubs don’t make any money and close. But there was a thriving music scene back then and they put up with the sheer volume and maybe expected it. We were so loud that tubes fell out of light fittings and glasses fell off shelves. We only ever played at the Cart and Horses in that line up though. The blues boom had come and gone and progressive rock was still popular as well as more experimental bands like the Third Ear Band and Gnidrolog. Genesis and Yes were fine bands. True musicians, creative and entertaining, always destined for greater things. At that time we would watch bands like that in awe. They started out in small pubs too. I remember seeing Yes at the Greyhound in Walthamstow, Genesis at the Fishmongers Arms in Wood Green, and Wishbone Ash above a pub in Walthamstow, the Brewery Tap. They were clever and tight. But there was beginning to be an undercurrent in the music scene that undermined the idea that this was the be all and end all and there was a feeling that music had lost the sheer energy and excitement that had made it special. Why study intricate chord progressions and arrangements when more fun could be had just letting loose and playing loud and fast? Punk was really roots music and built a huge following very quickly when it first appeared. But it was a while later that Smiler felt it’s full effects in trying to get gigs anywhere really. We were the dinosaurs. We supported the Jam at Poplar Town Hall, and it was a clash of two cultures. They were young and really happening at the time. Their fans lined the front of the stage with looks of boredom on their faces when we played our set. We had our own following because not everyone loved punk, and guitar driven bands with solos still had some fans. We went to lots of punk gigs but didn’t enjoy them much. They were like us when we started out, full of energy and enthusiasm, but not much else of interest.

Doug Sampson

Smiler is known as the band where three musicians of Iron Maiden used to play. What are your best memories about Dennis Wilcock, Doug Sampson and Steve Harris? How could you describe them back then?

Steve had this serious side to him as I’ve said. Nothing is worse than making a mistake and wanting the floor to open up, and there’s a lot to remember and get right. I’ve learnt since then that it’s not the lack of mistakes but the way you deal with them that makes the difference. We’re not robots, so occasionally things go wrong. You can lose concentration if a guitar lead starts cutting out or howling feedback starts. As a semi-pro band very often you don’t have roadies to sort out problems. You have to muddle through it as best you can. You can spot mistakes other band members make and adjust the song accordingly. If you keep an ear open for the overall band sound as well as what you’re doing and a mistake happens, you can keep playing and an audience is unaware or really doesn’t mind that much. Just keep smiling. Despite the name we actually didn’t do much of that in those days, but it comes with experience.

Steve is a real showman now and that’s how it has to be because you can’t imagine it any other way. But back then you don’t have the experience and you’re learning, and places like the Cart and Horses didn’t allow you to move much. It was just too small. I haven’t been back there since, but it looks like there’s now a stage for the band to set up on. It has become a shrine now for Iron Maiden fans and ex players all over here and the rest of the world, and they celebrate the music of Iron Maiden and their friendship over the years. It’s like a clan. I’ve been invited along sometimes, but never been because I didn’t play in Iron Maiden, just with the musicians who went on to play with them and I’m just a relic from those early exciting days. I love to play still, and although I still do occasionally when an opportunity comes my way, but I’m no expert in Iron Maiden’s music or its history apart from those days many years ago.

As I’ve said, Steve used to get very nervous and he would concentrate on his playing. But we were all inexperienced actually. I can’t remember what Doug did before Smiler, but he’s a great bloke and we got along fine from the start. A fine player. He really drove the whole thing along. Mick says one night we were playing and someone in the audience threw a handful of maggots over his drumkit. I’ve no idea why or how come he’d decided to come along to our gig with a pocket full of maggots, but that’s what happened.

It’s common knowledge that you refused to play Steve’s own material like “Innocent Exile” and “Burning Ambition”. What were these songs like at the time? Were they written properly or were just some basic ideas and riffs?

Actually we did include Steve’s own material in our set including “Innocent Exile” and one other. We were a blues based band with some progressive rock thrown in, so Steve’s writing didn’t work for us. He needed a platform for his own ideas so he moved on. It happens to most bands. Both Mick and I have been slagged off for turning down some songs, but we were never part of the new wave of metal scene and we chose to play what we really enjoyed playing, just as Steve did. Steve had the riffs and lyrics worked out when he had a new song and he would play it to us, and we would add what we thought would fit. It all seemed to work pretty well. I don’t remember any difficulty. But Steve’s songwriting came about towards the end of that Smiler line up. Before then we were taken up with learning covers and getting them tight. At some point we said that there were “too many changes” came about because it was a different style of music and required a different sound and approach. I don’t know why but I’ve never been a great fan of metal music. I can’t really compare myself to Eric Clapton, but I suspect it would sound a bit weird if he played that style of music as well. I didn’t even use distortion, just an amp and guitar. I like the tone you can get like that. Anything else sounded like a bee under a bucket.

By the way, could you imagine that Steve will achieve such a huge success with his music?

Steve was always very focused and intent on getting somewhere in music. Being in the forefront of the new wave of metal and building a worldwide audience is an incredible thing to have achieved, and I take my hat off to him. It has taken a lot of hard work and he has taken some knocks along the way. I believe he lost his dad very early on and his marriage broke down. Iron Maiden had all their gear stolen too which can be devastating for a new band.

Steve left to pursue his own career but why did Dennis and Doug left the band? Were they dissatisfied with the music? Did you stay in touch with Steve, Dennis and Doug after that?

They decided to leave around the same time. All bands have a time span really, some longer than others. I suppose there was some dissatisfaction with the music, but that is the nature of things. Give it a run and see what happens and then move on. I haven’t seen any of them since, but Mick kept in touch with Steve and has been to his house in Essex a few times. Doug was there too. Steve has kept a real down to earth genuiness about himself. He gave Mick and I a lift home from the Bridgehouse at Canning Town in East London when my car was stolen. We played there a few times as did Iron Maiden. Anyway, it was good of him. It was discouraging to see some of the comments attributed to him about us. Nearly all the interviews he has given over the years have been negative, so I for one have never been part of the metal scene or mention it really. But Mick says Steve is quite humble and sincere and I believe him.

What happened to Smiler after that? Did you continue playing and touring under this name?

We continued for quite few years after that. We played mostly around London and the South East and played some nice gigs with some great musicians, some of whom aren’t around anymore. Our old drummer, John Selby, stills plays and recently invited us along to a gig with Andy who played keyboards and guitar in Smiler for a while.

Somewhere in the beginning of the 80’s Mick formed the new band called T34. Tell us a bit of its formation, please. Is it true that the band had Steve Williams of Budgie fame in its line-up? How did you meet him? Why didn’t Tony joined the band?

Well Steve Williams never did play with Budgie, but he was the lead singer of T34. Steve was a great front man, a talented singer and full of energy. He’d been with us since the Smiler days. When I left Smiler they formed the band T34, bringing in a keyboard player too. I left the band because I wanted a break from it for while. T 34 were quite successful and developed a more commercial sound and played some great gigs including the Venue in London. They had sponsorship deals on the go and were scheduled to do a European tour, but management problems let them down.

Did you consider T34 as a NWOBHM band? By the way, what was your attitude to heavy metal at the time?

I don’t think they fell into that category at all. They had a good powerful sound and were writing some good songs too. I think Mick really came into his own after I left Smiler and some of his playing was outstanding. As I’ve said we didn’t follow the heavy metal scene really. We did go along the new wave of punk a bit, changing the name Smiler to Vic Rubb and the Vapours and picking up some new songs along the way, like “Violence”. There was a band around at the time called the Vapours who had a hit song and asked us to change the name.

The single “Computer Dating” was recorded in the famous Spaceward Studios in London. Can you recall anything about the place which was very popular among the musicians in London?

Mick says it was a popular place to record because bands didn’t have to buy the master tape but could get copies, especially singles made. This brought the cost down quite a lot. Spaceward was in Cambridge, not London, and had a good reputation for some quality recordings.

By the way, what is the meaning of the song “Computer Dating”?

“Computer Dating” was about just that, finding a relationship via the internet. It was a new idea really back then. I remember a weekly TV show called Juke Box Jury where a panel of celebrities would hear some new releases and give their verdict on whether or not there was a hit or miss in there. Ian Dury of Blockheads fame liked “Computer Dating” a lot. It wasn’t a hit.

On the next single — “Rock On” — T34 drifted to more commercial shores. Why was that? Did you try to find a niche for the band or was a demand from your label? Why did you decide to record David Essex cover?

T34 were always on the look out for suitable material whether it was an original or not. “Rock On” got some airplay and was a good choice. The more commercial side really worked for them and brought some success which wasn’t forthcoming with Smiler.

Can you recall anything about such songs like “Fire Down Below” and “A Look From Your Eye”? Were they originals?

“Fire Down Below” was a Bob Seger song. A good powerful riff and great lyrics. “A Look From Your Eye” was an original though. I’m sorry if this is sketchy but I wasn’t in the band and had to write some notes during a phone call to Mick.

T34 was done by 1983 but rumors say that Mick tried to reactivate the band in 1989. Is it correct?

He says this isn’t true.

Did you both tried to join some successful bands after Smiler and T34? Give us please an overview of your career after these bands.

I’ve played in many bands over the years, from straight ahead Chicago Blues to rock and roll, jazz, country, sixties, anything really. I love to play but it’s actually very difficult to find musicians who are willing to commit their time. I was in a Pink Floyd tribute band called Echoes of Floyd. That was very exciting because we had the proper lighting and props like Floyd. I played lap steel in that band as well as guitar. Mick hasn’t been in a band since leaving T34, but he says he’s getting back into playing again recently.

Thank you in advance! Feel free to share anything you want with the readers of the blog!

I hope your readers can find some interest here. Thank you for asking.